Farewell to the state
Whose motto is known
Live Free or Die
Don't masquerade
Let your true colors shown
Without tint or dye
What does it account
To be around
Washington's mount
He felt the urge
From Valley Forge
To fight King George
His legacy a sign
Put life on the line
And fight the combine
What moral does it raise
To meander your ways
At Bethlehem the place
Home of David the rebel
Who through shots treble
Succumbed Goliath with pebble
No longer hide in cave
Express your mind brave
To authority don't waive
Oh, descent from heaven
From your illusions break
For before late
Only after days seven
You will wake
Welcome to the Empire State
Monday, November 17, 2008
Wednesday, November 12, 2008
Carnilamentum
This week we eat blintzes then we can have zebra again.
One mid-summer week, Hasidim do not eat meat, chicken, or derivatives. But why not follow a chronological order?
Once upon a time, in a far away land, a white-and-blue-marble structure stretched tall on the summit of Temple Mount. This most cherished shrine in Judea was built by its most despised ruler, Herod. The temple was the last fort defended by righteous and wicked alike, and the temple was the site where the blood of the best of Judea was spilled in a bitter war; a war waged against the most formidable empire, a hopeless war destined for defeat from its onset, a war fought with heroism to preserve the values of Judea, a war fought with loyalty to honor His holy name, and a war fought in rebellion against the fierce opposition from Torah leaders.
Hundreds of thousands were slaughtered, Jerusalem obliterated, and the temple incinerated. Hence forth, the situation only deteriorated for Jews living in the Holy Land. The Romans destructed more cities, banned the study of Torah and the observation of the commandments, and brutally executed ten of the greatest sages. With every passing decade conditions got worse and the population dwindled, until only a handful remained in Judea. From that time on, Jews have had no official homeland, and were constantly expelled to new places, while leaving the old places drenched in blood and tears.
Although the Torah leaders detested the Romans and labeled them the Wicked Kingdom, and although Rabbi Simon almost paid with his life for making accusation as harsh as stating the underlying reason why the Romans built bridges is to collect tolls, the pious sages did not blame Rome for their troubles, but the sins of Judea.
It all started when some schlimazel dialed the wrong number, but the mistakenly called party insisted on striking up a conversation. When the caller hung up on him, he reported to the police who opened an investigation. The prosecution worked on a strategy to put the community to a test on a hot-button issue. The board decided to act politically correct, but one holier-than-thou Halachaist convinced the jury to stick to its principles. The moral of the story is that Jews should not sponsor free hatred and should never ever dial a wrong number.
In mourning of those horrific events, the ninth day of the Hebrew lunar-month Av is declared a fast, and the week leading to that day is declared a lamentation. One way specified by Halacha as expressing grief is a meatless diet. In my opinion, the notion that a meaty meal is celebratory is outdated, and the denial of a nutritious-chicken dinner for children is fanatic.
posted by Renaissance at 9:05 PM on Aug 5, 2008
gevezener illuy said...
but whats the picture?
August 6, 2008 9:40 AM
jewish philosopher said...
A low calorie veggie diet probably won't hurt for one week. ;-)
August 6, 2008 11:29 AM
Hoezentragerin said...
Renaissance,
Why do I get the impression that you copied and pasted this post out of King James version of the bible? I'm just not sure if it's from Mathews, Luke, or John? :)
August 6, 2008 1:49 PM
velvel chusid said...
Nice post. Reading the eye witness account of Josephus on the Jewish uprising against the Romans we learn that the events leading up to the destruction of the Jewish land were a combination of Jewish zealotry, Jews who would rather die than seeing the Temple fall into roman hands. Coupled with a lack of leadership, bands of thugs took matters in their own hands, while the responsible leaders who warned that the uprising has no chance were ignored or killed.
Josephus speculates that if Chananya the Cohen Godel would not have been brutally killed by Jewish gangstars the destruction would have been prevented.
I think today we still face the same dangers Zealotry and lack of responsible moderate leaders. So when we sit on the floor and mourn I think we can mourn the continuous never ended destruction.
August 6, 2008 1:54 PM
shlomohamelech said...
Is this about Hisdism?
August 6, 2008 2:28 PM
Renaissance said...
GI,
“But what’s the picture?”
It's not a picture; it's a cartoon. And to state the obvious, it depicts a lion giving the menu to its cubs.
HT,
"Why do I get the impression that you copied and pasted this post out of King James’ version of the bible? I'm just not sure if it's from Mathew, Luke, or John?”
You are unsure what book, but sure that it’s King James’ translation.
Velvel,
“Nice post”
Thanks; you're the only one who afforded that.
“Reading the eye witness account of Josephus…”
Flavius Josephus was more naïve than the average unwashed-medieval serf to believe in, and to record about, all the mythological non-sense the ancients attributed to Alexander the Great. What makes this person so super-credulous anyway? Was he awarded a Pulitzer? I will take his account of the factual events, but disregard the analytical cause and effect. Clearly, he had an agenda, and certainly he was a biased-subjective journalist.
“Jews who would rather die than seeing the Temple fall into roman hands”
So the Jihad was a consequence of the belief that a victorious Rome will burn the temple? This is not how Josephus tells the story; he claims that Titus had no choice but bring the temple down as the warriors fortified there.
“Would not have been brutally killed by Jewish gangsters the destruction would have been prevented.”
So again it was the Jews at fault. Rome was the legitimate occupying force who had the absolute right to oppress Judea as it pleased with vicious rulers and intolerable taxes. Just like the Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who put the guilt of the holocaust squarely on the Zionists.
“Today we still face… lack of responsible moderate leaders.”
Who needs leaders anyway? I don’t want a leader of any kind. What am I? Conscripted in the force? For God’s sake, I’m my own leader.
King Solomon,
This is my blog, and here I’ll decide on what topic to post and what position to take. If you feel the contents and tone of this post doesn’t fit in the motive of this blog, then read my introduction.
August 6, 2008 10:49 PM
velvel chusid said...
Let me clerify, and it's "Inune D'yoma"
"Flavius Josephus was more naïve than the average unwashed-medieval serf to believe in, and to record about, all the mythological non-sense the ancients attributed to Alexander the Great"
Josephus' accounts were proven to be remarkably accurate by historians and archaeologists.
In his book The Jewish war he comes across as far from naive. But shrewd and sly. I cant recall any nonsense in the book. your qutes on Alexander is not there.
What makes this person so super-credulous anyway? Was he awarded a Pulitzer? I will take his account of the factual events, but disregard the analytical cause and effect. Clearly, he had an agenda, and certainly he was a biased-subjective journalist."
He was born and raised in Jerusalem and he was General at Yudfas who held on an heroic defence against the Roman machine for 47 days. He was a true patriot. True he was an elitist out of touch with the sufferings of the poor population. But his blaming the war on irresponsible hot heads who fantasized of beating the Roman army is a legitimate one. This was the view of the senior leadership on Jerusalem at the time, even not from the Perushim and we all know R' Yochnen ben Zakai's position.
"Jews who would rather die than seeing the Temple fall into roman hands"
So the Jihad was a consequence of the belief that a victorious Rome will burn the temple? This is not how Josephus tells the story; he claims that Titus had no choice but bring the temple down as the warriors fortified there.
Again you need to read him. When the city was surrounded and there was no chance of winning the battle, rather then surrender and save the city the war turned into a Jihadic frenzy of let us rather die than seeing the temple into strangers hands. Josephus claims the actual burning of the temple was a mistake of an irresponsible solder Titus would rather leave it in tact .
"Would not have been brutally killed by Jewish gangsters the destruction would have been prevented."
So again it was the Jews at fault. Rome was the legitimate occupying force who had the absolute right to oppress Judea as it pleased with vicious rulers and intolerable taxes. Just like the Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who put the guilt of the holocaust squarely on the Zionists.
My Friend Rome was occupying the entire world at the time no one dreamed of freeing themselves. True the Roman ruler Floras was brutal & corrupt but the war brought about the killing of a million hundred thousand Jews plus hundreds of thousands of prisoners. It was entirely preventable. And btw there is some validaty to R' Yoelishes claims although his claiming the Zionist are responsible for the 6 million was wishfull thinking on his part.
Today we still face… lack of responsible moderate leaders."
Who needs leaders anyway? I don't want a leader of any kind. What am I? Conscripted in the force? For God's sake, I'm my own leader.
As long as your are the sole leader of your entire blog things will be fine. (and that only till your wife finds out... forgive me) but for people to come togather and act leadership is needed. And crazy leaders can turn everyone into animels. Like Hitler ane Kim Yung Ill.
August 7, 2008 10:20 AM
Renaissance said...
Velvel,
I guess you are right on all counts; It's just that I was moody last night.
August 7, 2008 10:37 AM
shlomohamelech said...
I could care less of what you write, I just wanted you to clarify the fact that your blog should not be taken seriously.
August 7, 2008 12:59 PM
Renaissance said...
You have successfully clarified the fact. Blog will not be taken seriously.
August 7, 2008 1:10 PM
Hoezentragerin said...
"Just like the Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who put the guilt of the holocaust squarely on the Zionists".
I never understood his reasoning. He and his followers also claimed that the Zionist used the holocaust as a way to garner world pity, which ultimately lead to the establishment of the Jewish state.
If that is the case, God punished the Zionist by rewarding them.
August 7, 2008 2:57 PM
gevezener illuy said...
מי אנכי להכניס ראשי בין ההרים הרמים
But i think renaissance read the Hebrew book of yoisifun, which was written as a divrei hayomin. And includes multitudes of Greek nonsense on Alexander the great.
(Not that I have a obsession with yaavetz, but he already points it out and claims it was forged. but he also claimed that the moreh is a forgery, so...)
While velvel read "milchemes hayehudim", which is a translation of what he wrote in greek on the jewish war, and the events that led to it.
But one thing is sure; he is as biased and subjective as a author can be. While he might be reliable, when it comes to recounting facts that were known in his time. I dont think he can be trusted on anything beyond that, including what led to these known facts to happen.
True patriot?!?! He writes with such pride on herods accomplishments. the cities and temples he built for the Greeks and Romans, how he sponsored the Greek Olympics and built ports for so many cities. but fails to mention where this money came from. the heavy taxes that were levied on judea to benefit herods show-offs. its only mentioned fleetingly in his recount of the power struggle after herod died. in the Jewish petition to Caesar to abolish the monarchy and turn Judea into a roman protectorate.
His own account of the time he was military governor of the Galilee region, is of a brutal greedy warlord. Who needs a body guard of 600, and tortures tiberians who come to peacefully beseech him for additional wartime funds.
this is much more than just a elitist. i look at him as much more as a political opportunist. Trying to use the political upheaval to his own benefit. And manipulating the facts in his books according to the audience.
August 7, 2008 5:39 PM
velvel chusid said...
GI, I also wondred if our host read the Yosifin, which is a bundle of balonies.
On Josephus we can argue all day on his real intentions, he is very sly in his writing. Bear in mind he wrote it in Rome so he needed to be carefull I'd guess.
August 8, 2008 10:55 AM
velvel chusid said...
Btw I forgot to point out Yosifin was not written (Yosef Ben Gurion he cals himself there) by the originel Jesephus Ben Mattesyahu. But by a Jew in the ninth century who wanted to make some money.
August 8, 2008 10:58 AM
The Chief said...
Ren,
The notion that a meaty meal is celebratory... is outdated."
The entire system is outdated. We live with primitive fanatical guidlines.
August 8, 2008 5:15 PM
Once upon a time, in a far away land, a white-and-blue-marble structure stretched tall on the summit of Temple Mount. This most cherished shrine in Judea was built by its most despised ruler, Herod. The temple was the last fort defended by righteous and wicked alike, and the temple was the site where the blood of the best of Judea was spilled in a bitter war; a war waged against the most formidable empire, a hopeless war destined for defeat from its onset, a war fought with heroism to preserve the values of Judea, a war fought with loyalty to honor His holy name, and a war fought in rebellion against the fierce opposition from Torah leaders.
Hundreds of thousands were slaughtered, Jerusalem obliterated, and the temple incinerated. Hence forth, the situation only deteriorated for Jews living in the Holy Land. The Romans destructed more cities, banned the study of Torah and the observation of the commandments, and brutally executed ten of the greatest sages. With every passing decade conditions got worse and the population dwindled, until only a handful remained in Judea. From that time on, Jews have had no official homeland, and were constantly expelled to new places, while leaving the old places drenched in blood and tears.
Although the Torah leaders detested the Romans and labeled them the Wicked Kingdom, and although Rabbi Simon almost paid with his life for making accusation as harsh as stating the underlying reason why the Romans built bridges is to collect tolls, the pious sages did not blame Rome for their troubles, but the sins of Judea.
It all started when some schlimazel dialed the wrong number, but the mistakenly called party insisted on striking up a conversation. When the caller hung up on him, he reported to the police who opened an investigation. The prosecution worked on a strategy to put the community to a test on a hot-button issue. The board decided to act politically correct, but one holier-than-thou Halachaist convinced the jury to stick to its principles. The moral of the story is that Jews should not sponsor free hatred and should never ever dial a wrong number.
In mourning of those horrific events, the ninth day of the Hebrew lunar-month Av is declared a fast, and the week leading to that day is declared a lamentation. One way specified by Halacha as expressing grief is a meatless diet. In my opinion, the notion that a meaty meal is celebratory is outdated, and the denial of a nutritious-chicken dinner for children is fanatic.
posted by Renaissance at 9:05 PM on Aug 5, 2008
gevezener illuy said...
but whats the picture?
August 6, 2008 9:40 AM
jewish philosopher said...
A low calorie veggie diet probably won't hurt for one week. ;-)
August 6, 2008 11:29 AM
Hoezentragerin said...
Renaissance,
Why do I get the impression that you copied and pasted this post out of King James version of the bible? I'm just not sure if it's from Mathews, Luke, or John? :)
August 6, 2008 1:49 PM
velvel chusid said...
Nice post. Reading the eye witness account of Josephus on the Jewish uprising against the Romans we learn that the events leading up to the destruction of the Jewish land were a combination of Jewish zealotry, Jews who would rather die than seeing the Temple fall into roman hands. Coupled with a lack of leadership, bands of thugs took matters in their own hands, while the responsible leaders who warned that the uprising has no chance were ignored or killed.
Josephus speculates that if Chananya the Cohen Godel would not have been brutally killed by Jewish gangstars the destruction would have been prevented.
I think today we still face the same dangers Zealotry and lack of responsible moderate leaders. So when we sit on the floor and mourn I think we can mourn the continuous never ended destruction.
August 6, 2008 1:54 PM
shlomohamelech said...
Is this about Hisdism?
August 6, 2008 2:28 PM
Renaissance said...
GI,
“But what’s the picture?”
It's not a picture; it's a cartoon. And to state the obvious, it depicts a lion giving the menu to its cubs.
HT,
"Why do I get the impression that you copied and pasted this post out of King James’ version of the bible? I'm just not sure if it's from Mathew, Luke, or John?”
You are unsure what book, but sure that it’s King James’ translation.
Velvel,
“Nice post”
Thanks; you're the only one who afforded that.
“Reading the eye witness account of Josephus…”
Flavius Josephus was more naïve than the average unwashed-medieval serf to believe in, and to record about, all the mythological non-sense the ancients attributed to Alexander the Great. What makes this person so super-credulous anyway? Was he awarded a Pulitzer? I will take his account of the factual events, but disregard the analytical cause and effect. Clearly, he had an agenda, and certainly he was a biased-subjective journalist.
“Jews who would rather die than seeing the Temple fall into roman hands”
So the Jihad was a consequence of the belief that a victorious Rome will burn the temple? This is not how Josephus tells the story; he claims that Titus had no choice but bring the temple down as the warriors fortified there.
“Would not have been brutally killed by Jewish gangsters the destruction would have been prevented.”
So again it was the Jews at fault. Rome was the legitimate occupying force who had the absolute right to oppress Judea as it pleased with vicious rulers and intolerable taxes. Just like the Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who put the guilt of the holocaust squarely on the Zionists.
“Today we still face… lack of responsible moderate leaders.”
Who needs leaders anyway? I don’t want a leader of any kind. What am I? Conscripted in the force? For God’s sake, I’m my own leader.
King Solomon,
This is my blog, and here I’ll decide on what topic to post and what position to take. If you feel the contents and tone of this post doesn’t fit in the motive of this blog, then read my introduction.
August 6, 2008 10:49 PM
velvel chusid said...
Let me clerify, and it's "Inune D'yoma"
"Flavius Josephus was more naïve than the average unwashed-medieval serf to believe in, and to record about, all the mythological non-sense the ancients attributed to Alexander the Great"
Josephus' accounts were proven to be remarkably accurate by historians and archaeologists.
In his book The Jewish war he comes across as far from naive. But shrewd and sly. I cant recall any nonsense in the book. your qutes on Alexander is not there.
What makes this person so super-credulous anyway? Was he awarded a Pulitzer? I will take his account of the factual events, but disregard the analytical cause and effect. Clearly, he had an agenda, and certainly he was a biased-subjective journalist."
He was born and raised in Jerusalem and he was General at Yudfas who held on an heroic defence against the Roman machine for 47 days. He was a true patriot. True he was an elitist out of touch with the sufferings of the poor population. But his blaming the war on irresponsible hot heads who fantasized of beating the Roman army is a legitimate one. This was the view of the senior leadership on Jerusalem at the time, even not from the Perushim and we all know R' Yochnen ben Zakai's position.
"Jews who would rather die than seeing the Temple fall into roman hands"
So the Jihad was a consequence of the belief that a victorious Rome will burn the temple? This is not how Josephus tells the story; he claims that Titus had no choice but bring the temple down as the warriors fortified there.
Again you need to read him. When the city was surrounded and there was no chance of winning the battle, rather then surrender and save the city the war turned into a Jihadic frenzy of let us rather die than seeing the temple into strangers hands. Josephus claims the actual burning of the temple was a mistake of an irresponsible solder Titus would rather leave it in tact .
"Would not have been brutally killed by Jewish gangsters the destruction would have been prevented."
So again it was the Jews at fault. Rome was the legitimate occupying force who had the absolute right to oppress Judea as it pleased with vicious rulers and intolerable taxes. Just like the Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who put the guilt of the holocaust squarely on the Zionists.
My Friend Rome was occupying the entire world at the time no one dreamed of freeing themselves. True the Roman ruler Floras was brutal & corrupt but the war brought about the killing of a million hundred thousand Jews plus hundreds of thousands of prisoners. It was entirely preventable. And btw there is some validaty to R' Yoelishes claims although his claiming the Zionist are responsible for the 6 million was wishfull thinking on his part.
Today we still face… lack of responsible moderate leaders."
Who needs leaders anyway? I don't want a leader of any kind. What am I? Conscripted in the force? For God's sake, I'm my own leader.
As long as your are the sole leader of your entire blog things will be fine. (and that only till your wife finds out... forgive me) but for people to come togather and act leadership is needed. And crazy leaders can turn everyone into animels. Like Hitler ane Kim Yung Ill.
August 7, 2008 10:20 AM
Renaissance said...
Velvel,
I guess you are right on all counts; It's just that I was moody last night.
August 7, 2008 10:37 AM
shlomohamelech said...
I could care less of what you write, I just wanted you to clarify the fact that your blog should not be taken seriously.
August 7, 2008 12:59 PM
Renaissance said...
You have successfully clarified the fact. Blog will not be taken seriously.
August 7, 2008 1:10 PM
Hoezentragerin said...
"Just like the Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who put the guilt of the holocaust squarely on the Zionists".
I never understood his reasoning. He and his followers also claimed that the Zionist used the holocaust as a way to garner world pity, which ultimately lead to the establishment of the Jewish state.
If that is the case, God punished the Zionist by rewarding them.
August 7, 2008 2:57 PM
gevezener illuy said...
מי אנכי להכניס ראשי בין ההרים הרמים
But i think renaissance read the Hebrew book of yoisifun, which was written as a divrei hayomin. And includes multitudes of Greek nonsense on Alexander the great.
(Not that I have a obsession with yaavetz, but he already points it out and claims it was forged. but he also claimed that the moreh is a forgery, so...)
While velvel read "milchemes hayehudim", which is a translation of what he wrote in greek on the jewish war, and the events that led to it.
But one thing is sure; he is as biased and subjective as a author can be. While he might be reliable, when it comes to recounting facts that were known in his time. I dont think he can be trusted on anything beyond that, including what led to these known facts to happen.
True patriot?!?! He writes with such pride on herods accomplishments. the cities and temples he built for the Greeks and Romans, how he sponsored the Greek Olympics and built ports for so many cities. but fails to mention where this money came from. the heavy taxes that were levied on judea to benefit herods show-offs. its only mentioned fleetingly in his recount of the power struggle after herod died. in the Jewish petition to Caesar to abolish the monarchy and turn Judea into a roman protectorate.
His own account of the time he was military governor of the Galilee region, is of a brutal greedy warlord. Who needs a body guard of 600, and tortures tiberians who come to peacefully beseech him for additional wartime funds.
this is much more than just a elitist. i look at him as much more as a political opportunist. Trying to use the political upheaval to his own benefit. And manipulating the facts in his books according to the audience.
August 7, 2008 5:39 PM
velvel chusid said...
GI, I also wondred if our host read the Yosifin, which is a bundle of balonies.
On Josephus we can argue all day on his real intentions, he is very sly in his writing. Bear in mind he wrote it in Rome so he needed to be carefull I'd guess.
August 8, 2008 10:55 AM
velvel chusid said...
Btw I forgot to point out Yosifin was not written (Yosef Ben Gurion he cals himself there) by the originel Jesephus Ben Mattesyahu. But by a Jew in the ninth century who wanted to make some money.
August 8, 2008 10:58 AM
The Chief said...
Ren,
The notion that a meaty meal is celebratory... is outdated."
The entire system is outdated. We live with primitive fanatical guidlines.
August 8, 2008 5:15 PM
Dare to Bear
The Annual Belly Inflation-Deflation Cycle Steadily Increased Our GDP
Hasidim raise large families. When I say large, I mean really large. Not every family makes it to the teens, but twelve-fifteen siblings don’t raise an eyebrow.
Some say they take revenge in Hitler by bringing about the proliferation of the species he wanted extinct. Others feel obliged to supply the objects to fill the transplanted shtetl that the Nazis have destructed. How sweet a vengeance is it having to struggle to feed a dozen mouths while Nazi descendents enjoy a welfare state? And isn’t it a little cruel to impose the burden of rebuilding a nation on frail feminine shoulders?
Some would rather enjoy the higher standard of living and the close-familial relationship that generally comes with reduced sizes, but believe that Halacha, the Jewish religious law, bans any type of birth control, so they let nature weigh in on their family planning decisions.
The mainstream mindset, however, is that children are a blessing and there is no such thing as too much of a blessing. Not that fanatic machismo denies women their rights and forces them into relentless child bearing. Napoleon Bonaparte said that women are nothing but machines for producing children. But the Hasidic men do not follow this belief. Quite the contrary; Hasidic men in general are not as frantic about high output as are their wives. It’s the women who through indoctrination by their teachers or through peer pressure come to glorify the role of maternity as the highest ideal. As the Chief correctly pointed out, this subject consumes the full CPU of the minds in the industry. When Hasidic ladies gossip that Jean Doe is, there is no need to ask what. Likewise, everybody knows what she missed, why she is so desperate, or for what they are still waiting.
A friend of mine told me that before he learned not to argue with his parents, he tried to convince them on the virtues of smaller families. His mother got defensive, “Look around on the children; which of these precious diamonds should not have been born?”
“Me”, he replied.
posted by Renaissance at 8:44 PM on Jul 28, 2008
The Chief said...
Your cartoon... the icing on the cake!
July 28, 2008 9:30 PM
velvel chusid said...
Boy you can write cartoons too! I thinks I recognize the man with this wide Biberhit, he doesn't have children incidentally.
You left out the main reason having lots of kids is hastening the redemption. The Talmud in Sanhedrin 98, "The son of David will not come until the souls of the body will end"
I guess with every additional child the other prophesy in the same Gemora get's fulfilled , "The son of David will not come until a penny in the pocket will end".
July 29, 2008 10:29 AM
Renaissance said...
He had children, but they passed. Here is another reason why having many is important; just to have in stock.
Hastening the redemption! How could I forget? Guf is not translated as body, but it’s more like the hanger for the souls before they land.
Both prophesies are intertwined. Velvele, I should kiss you on your forehead!
July 29, 2008 10:46 AM
Pragmatician said...
I don't know if they should be, but I often pity kids who come from large families, especially when they have to share their toys with their own, older, nephews!
July 29, 2008 11:04 AM
Freethinking Upstart said...
IIRC, The Gra wanted to nullify the takana of rabeynu gershom to reinstate polygamy. He felt that the only way to hurry the messiah's coming was to make babies.
July 30, 2008 3:53 PM
Renaissance said...
Pragmatician,
“I often pity kids who come from large families”
Save your pity; they grow up just fine.
“Especially when they have to share their toys…”
I thought you were going to say share parental attention.
Freethinking,
“The GRA wanted to nullify the takana of rabeynu gershom and reinstate polygamy.”
You honestly believe that? Who stopped him?
July 30, 2008 9:54 PM
Freethinking Upstart said...
Renaissance,
Click.
Apparently its in Ma'aseh Rav Hashalem pg. 276.
I never saw it inside but I've heard it from some serious Granicks in the old city.
July 31, 2008 5:04 PM
Freethinking Upstart said...
Just a follow up. You need the signatures of 100 prominent Rabbis to get the herem of Rabbi Gershom annulled and that was the Gra's rub.
August 1, 2008 12:08 AM
shlomohamelech said...
Well, I thought that you are going to explain Hasidism, but instead all we got is the same old stuff. You are describing a phenomenon which has nothing to do with Hasidism. Non Hasidic Jews also have large families to the same degree. It may be argued that proportionally to the entire Jewish population, Hasidic families are larger, however, this may not be true. The mere deciding factor in all of this is the level of observance. I would argue that those who want to be very frum usually have large families therefore the deciding factor is the level of frumkeit. We can argue about this forever, but as long as there won't be any real statistical analysis no one can prove anything.
Now, back to your post, I am Chasidish and I don't know where you got your facts from. I have never heard any talk on the subject of large v. small families in my family, community or even with my friends. To say that there is any deliberate calculated reason or plan with regards to large families is simply not true. In of itself, large families are not a cause but rather a symptom of the way of thinking and the way of life. Therefore, I will state my complaint again: you have not talked about Hasidism but rather got stuck on some talking point pro or against Hasidim.
August 6, 2008 1:44 PM
Some say they take revenge in Hitler by bringing about the proliferation of the species he wanted extinct. Others feel obliged to supply the objects to fill the transplanted shtetl that the Nazis have destructed. How sweet a vengeance is it having to struggle to feed a dozen mouths while Nazi descendents enjoy a welfare state? And isn’t it a little cruel to impose the burden of rebuilding a nation on frail feminine shoulders?
Some would rather enjoy the higher standard of living and the close-familial relationship that generally comes with reduced sizes, but believe that Halacha, the Jewish religious law, bans any type of birth control, so they let nature weigh in on their family planning decisions.
The mainstream mindset, however, is that children are a blessing and there is no such thing as too much of a blessing. Not that fanatic machismo denies women their rights and forces them into relentless child bearing. Napoleon Bonaparte said that women are nothing but machines for producing children. But the Hasidic men do not follow this belief. Quite the contrary; Hasidic men in general are not as frantic about high output as are their wives. It’s the women who through indoctrination by their teachers or through peer pressure come to glorify the role of maternity as the highest ideal. As the Chief correctly pointed out, this subject consumes the full CPU of the minds in the industry. When Hasidic ladies gossip that Jean Doe is, there is no need to ask what. Likewise, everybody knows what she missed, why she is so desperate, or for what they are still waiting.
A friend of mine told me that before he learned not to argue with his parents, he tried to convince them on the virtues of smaller families. His mother got defensive, “Look around on the children; which of these precious diamonds should not have been born?”
“Me”, he replied.
posted by Renaissance at 8:44 PM on Jul 28, 2008
The Chief said...
Your cartoon... the icing on the cake!
July 28, 2008 9:30 PM
velvel chusid said...
Boy you can write cartoons too! I thinks I recognize the man with this wide Biberhit, he doesn't have children incidentally.
You left out the main reason having lots of kids is hastening the redemption. The Talmud in Sanhedrin 98, "The son of David will not come until the souls of the body will end"
I guess with every additional child the other prophesy in the same Gemora get's fulfilled , "The son of David will not come until a penny in the pocket will end".
July 29, 2008 10:29 AM
Renaissance said...
He had children, but they passed. Here is another reason why having many is important; just to have in stock.
Hastening the redemption! How could I forget? Guf is not translated as body, but it’s more like the hanger for the souls before they land.
Both prophesies are intertwined. Velvele, I should kiss you on your forehead!
July 29, 2008 10:46 AM
Pragmatician said...
I don't know if they should be, but I often pity kids who come from large families, especially when they have to share their toys with their own, older, nephews!
July 29, 2008 11:04 AM
Freethinking Upstart said...
IIRC, The Gra wanted to nullify the takana of rabeynu gershom to reinstate polygamy. He felt that the only way to hurry the messiah's coming was to make babies.
July 30, 2008 3:53 PM
Renaissance said...
Pragmatician,
“I often pity kids who come from large families”
Save your pity; they grow up just fine.
“Especially when they have to share their toys…”
I thought you were going to say share parental attention.
Freethinking,
“The GRA wanted to nullify the takana of rabeynu gershom and reinstate polygamy.”
You honestly believe that? Who stopped him?
July 30, 2008 9:54 PM
Freethinking Upstart said...
Renaissance,
Click.
Apparently its in Ma'aseh Rav Hashalem pg. 276.
I never saw it inside but I've heard it from some serious Granicks in the old city.
July 31, 2008 5:04 PM
Freethinking Upstart said...
Just a follow up. You need the signatures of 100 prominent Rabbis to get the herem of Rabbi Gershom annulled and that was the Gra's rub.
August 1, 2008 12:08 AM
shlomohamelech said...
Well, I thought that you are going to explain Hasidism, but instead all we got is the same old stuff. You are describing a phenomenon which has nothing to do with Hasidism. Non Hasidic Jews also have large families to the same degree. It may be argued that proportionally to the entire Jewish population, Hasidic families are larger, however, this may not be true. The mere deciding factor in all of this is the level of observance. I would argue that those who want to be very frum usually have large families therefore the deciding factor is the level of frumkeit. We can argue about this forever, but as long as there won't be any real statistical analysis no one can prove anything.
Now, back to your post, I am Chasidish and I don't know where you got your facts from. I have never heard any talk on the subject of large v. small families in my family, community or even with my friends. To say that there is any deliberate calculated reason or plan with regards to large families is simply not true. In of itself, large families are not a cause but rather a symptom of the way of thinking and the way of life. Therefore, I will state my complaint again: you have not talked about Hasidism but rather got stuck on some talking point pro or against Hasidim.
August 6, 2008 1:44 PM
Disbelief, Cleave, or Leave
He said you shouldn't taste the forbidden fruit while in the fold?
Recently, Blogosphere explored the motives for Hasidic dissention, and it attempted to address the apparent gender factor in rebellion. Jewish Philosopher, a somewhat weird Hasidic-convert blogger, triggered the debate by proposing that all the idealistic-atheistic chatter is mere rubbish and a disguise for the inner urges for freedom of sex. He rationalizes this conclusion by the fact that the overwhelming majority of exes are men, which he contributes the licentious nature of the male. The theory goes that skeptics are immoral and crave sin, which they believe is accessible only by leaving the fold. An offended Shtreimel posted to refute this logic, and has attracted an unusual large number of comments.
Before hypotheses can be offered to phenomena, there must be an accurate observation. JP failed to reveal any sources that demonstrate the difference between men and women rebels exceeds the margin of coincidence. As far as known, the US Census Bureau releases no official statistics on the trend of Hasidic dissention. Personal accounts do not suffice, because it is likely the evaluator is not acquainted with a significant number of instances.
Even if the assumption will hold true, there is no basis for a claim that the sexual aspect of masculinity is the culprit. Two related variables do not necessarily show cause and effect; both variables might as well be the dual effect of a third-variable cause. The gender-causing variable can be solved as the 23rd chromosome, so who can exclude behavioral distinctions as not being coded in the miles of tangled-so-called-junk genes?
Naturally, the many differences in behavior between the sexes are not all attributed to erotic motives. Women are known to be loquacious, emotional, and of a flimsy structure. Men generally shower in the mornings, while their counterparts bath before bed. (Evolutionists: Screech between your teeth that it’s millennia of preparations for the evening at play.) Therefore, even if testosterone is indeed the explanation as JP claims, rebellion could be a male characteristic independent of eroticism.
However, Hasidic men are more prone to the influences of the outside world than are their wives. The sophistication of men rests on the tripod of interaction, accountability, and mobility. The ratio of men to women in the workforce is still high in Hasidic communities. Business contacts are not regulated by the authorities of the ghetto, and people are introduced to new ideas in the workplace. What’s more, husbands can easily deceive their wives as spending time in job or at shul, while being somewhere else. Mothers, however, cannot leave their homes without asking their husbands to babysit and thus report in detail what, where, and when. Finally, Hasidic women don’t drive; it’s a taboo. Men can cruise around as they wish, while women have their wings chopped.
Nonetheless, the reason why skeptics leave for the secular world is so clear that one may question the need to state the obvious. People want a better life for themselves, and will pursue it wherever they believe they can find it. Why would skeptics deny themselves a better life for reasons in which they don’t believe? Dissidents weigh the alluring street and painful rift on one side of the equation against an increasingly intolerable ghetto and the coziness of the accustomed on the other side. Different situations cause different minds to come to different conclusions; some decide to stay and others decide to break away.
posted by Renaissance at 1:29 PM on Aug 3, 2008
Hoezentragerin said...
Another obvious variable you failed to mention;
How many Chasidishe women are financially independent? If they chose to leave, who will provide for them and their children?
August 3, 2008 3:38 PM
The Chief said...
Hoisentragerin,
Even if we are currently financially independent, we are very likely to lose our job, if we leave. (Seriously, who of us works for a non frum firm or a frum firm that would tolerate such a drastic life change?!)
August 3, 2008 9:45 PM
Hasidic Rebel said...
Renaissance -- good discussion. I had a few points to make in response, but what was to be a few short comments ended up being a full essay on the subject. Aside from its length, it's a bit dense, and I didn't want to hog your comment space.
For those interested, my thoughts are on my blog: Unexplored Perspectives on Sexual Motivation for Hasidic Rebellion.
August 3, 2008 10:41 PM
jewish philosopher said...
“a somewhat weird Hasidic-convert blogger”
Look who’s talking.
Atheists are merely self deluded libertines.
To borrow a phrase from the immortal James Carville “It’s the sex, stupid.”
August 4, 2008 9:37 AM
Renaissance said...
HT,
I mentioned three reasons why Hasidic men are susceptible to the influences of the outside world more then Hasidic women. Financial independence is what makes it easier for them to leave after they were influenced.
Chief,
The Equal Employment Opportunity Act will back you.
HR,
I shall comment there.
JP,
I’m neither an atheist nor a libertine. What made you believe I’m?’
Be honest, if the slightest remark from every schmuck on the internet makes you jump, aren’t you weird?
August 4, 2008 10:05 AM
jewish philosopher said...
"I’m neither an atheist nor a libertine. What made you believe I’m?"
What made you think I think you are?
"Be honest, if the slightest remark from every schmuck on the internet makes you jump, aren’t you weird?"
Who's jumping?
August 4, 2008 10:31 AM
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...
Renaissance,
Articulate post; loved your points. The question of the male to female ratio in the rebel society is not as much about chassidiology or physiology as it is one of sociology. The same problem - on a broader spectrum - has been bothering scholars and feminists for years. Why is the literary canon nearly devoid of female authors? Why is the history philosophy absent of many female thinkers? Why is politics dominated by male figures? The answer is a collective understanding of evolutionary biology, cultural suppression and gender diversity.
Certainly, no one would argue that any of the aforementioned male dominated categories are in any way related to testosterone (unless you are inclined to say Bill Clinton’s oval office motivations were Lewinsky; which may be the case if you’re Jacob Stein, but then again, Hillary has been looking for oval office goodies too). There’s obviously a more complex issue at hand which isn’t as conveniently explained as some might hope.
August 4, 2008 11:01 AM
velvel chusid said...
There is an entire chapter in shulchun oruch on Hilchus Yichud. How many men and women may be in a room (2 men 3 women etc.) the ages. what about if the husband is in the same city etc. etc. You all want to understand all this on one foot it doesn't go this way. Talmudei Chachumim are 'Huravening' days and nights on this subject.
August 4, 2008 12:59 PM
Renaissance said...
JP,
Whatever
SS,
I agree with your general point that broader evolutionary and social implications favored the male.
Testosterone, however, is not only responsible for lustrous urges. Testosterone is the male sex hormone; it’s the messenger of the male gene to make the body masculine for all that it includes.
Velvel,
With all due respect, I think you are off topic. You heard me claim I wish to understand the subject on one foot?
August 5, 2008 9:35 PM
shlomohamelech said...
To those whose religion is Darwin's natural selection: how can you say that leaving the fold is not about sex? Natural selection is all about procreation. The fact that we have birth control does not change the fact that animal behavior, according to the theory of natural selectoin, is all about sex and procreation. In so far, Darwinists aslways have to explain and find a reason for why animals behave the way they do when there is no apparent connection to sex and procreation. To this end we can all agree that of of the bases in religion is to counter the sexual urges. See, Miller, G.F., (2007). SEXUAL SELECTION FOR MORAL VIRTUES. The Quarterly Review of Biology., 82 (2), 97.
August 6, 2008 2:25 PM
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)